Curse

yacom1118 · May 24, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Hi all,

Recently I have been practicing to become a terra tank for UW HM pug groups.
I use the following build:

Glyph of Swiftness
Obsidian Flesh
Stoneflesh Aura
Sliver Armor
Lava Font
Mantra of Earth
Stone Striker
Arcane echo/I'm Unstoppable

Thanks to Fooster's and Cerb's great guides, after about 2-3 runs I found myself very comfortable soloing the Ice Wastes and the Bone Pits with their respective quests; I'm also comfortable in clearing the Chaos Plains in preparation for the Four Horsemen. However --

In a total of 6 trials of the Four Horsemen quest, I only succeeded 3 times (two of them being I got killed after about 1-2 minutes and the whole group saved the quest). In most of these trials, I was keeping all my enchants on: Obby Flesh, Stoneflesh, MoE and SS, after about 15 seconds to 2 minutes facing the two Dhuums and Dryders, however, I found myself undergoing massive damage plus level 5+ degeneration, and -- I would die within 5 seconds.

I tried to research the problem and found out that Signet of Humility casted by the Dhuums could be the answer. In Guildwars Wiki the description of SoH is: "Target foe's elite skill is disabled for 1...13 seconds." Forgive my noobiness since I have only played this game for about 2 months -- I don't know exactly what "disabled" is. Does "disable" also imply taking away my currently enchanted Obby Flesh, in addition to disabling me to use the skill again? If that's true then the massive damage is easily explained -- my obby flesh was taken away. But then, how do I know when they are casting SoH? Would my Obby Flesh enchant sign flash after they cast it (and before it's taken away)? Is that the time when I should call for SB?

Every time I became so nervous in this quest that I would only stare at my skill bars to keep everything on that I ignored my enchant signs... and every time I was left with a big question mark not knowing what had caused the sudden death.

What this makes me feel even worse is that the whole group would waste their 1 hour or so time simply because I didn't know what I was doing...

So, please answer my urgent questions. Thanks a bunch in advance!

~A Distressed Newbie Terra Tank

miskav · May 24, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Duration of enchants when used with a + enchant mod get rounded down wrongly.

For example take Shielding Hands.

Without an enchant mod, it'd last 12 seconds, and with one it'd last 14.4 seconds.

Though, the game seems to make Shielding hands end at 13 or 14 seconds already, depending on how it rounded down.

The image of Shielding hands will stay up, but the damage reduction will go away, this is an old problem dating back to Prophecies =/.

yacom1118 · May 24, 2008, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Thanks for your advice. But I'm thinking maybe the problem is not about duration since I could solo the wastes and pits and plains with my obby flesh and stoneflesh on all the time -- in fact this task becomes even easier with con sets, which makes recharge significantly faster.

miskav · May 24, 2008, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Well, it's not recharge that's to blame, it's length of the enchant, atleast if it behaves like Shielding Hands does.

joshuarodger · May 24, 2008, 09:44 PM // 21:44

really it sounds like the problem is that your original [obsidian fle] is expiring while the effects of [signet of hum] are still in effect.

i.e. say you have 10 seconds of recharge left for obsidian flesh, you then get hit with SoH which disables your elite for x number of seconds. i could be wrong but i don't believe the 2 stack, therefore if x>remaining recharge, x takes effect. if x<remaining recharge, regular recharge remains in effect.

in HM the Dhuums have 20 domination magic which means that SoH disables your elite for ~21 seconds, which is usually going to be more than the remaining recharge for obs. flesh when you're terra tanking. i've never actually tried to terra this quest so i'm no expert on it for this particular situation.

yacom1118 · May 24, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Thanks again, Miskav. I haven't measured the exact lengths of my enchants but with +20 enchant on my staff and melee weapons I could solo the first wave in Glint's Challenge HM as well as clear the Chaos Plains HM after my group members leave, both without celerity or any other cons. So I am sure the length of enchants for both obby flesh and stoneflesh are in fact designed to work seamlessly with the help of Glyph of Swiftness, which makes entirely feasible keeping both of them on all the time.

My big problem is that it seemed I would suffer from sudden death even with all of these enchants on, and my conjecture is that at least one of them -- obby flesh being the most likely -- was taken away, somehow. Maybe by Signet of Humility? I don't know... -_-

I was suspecting lagging problem... But after it happened 3 times in a row, I don't think that is the case anymore...

yacom1118 · May 24, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Thanks for your advice, Joshua.

If I remember correctly, I didn't experience a rollback on my recharge... It was like, everything was going just as smooth as in wastes and pits, and... got hit hard and died. I could be wrong... maybe I didn't even notice there was a rollback that was caused by SoH.

That also leads to one of my previous questions: does SoH also take away your currently enchanted elite skill such as Obby Flesh, in addition to rolling back your recharge?

Thanks again!

Chthon · May 24, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Obby flesh lasts 21 sec at 16 Earth, plus 20% takes it up to 25.2, rounds down to 25.

Obby flesh recharges in 30, minus 25% is 22.5, rounds up to 23.

Leaves a two second window to recast. It's a 1 sec cast, so you're normally OK.

The Dhumms have 0 point sin Inspiration magic, which is what Sig of Humility is tied to. So they can disable it for 1 sec. Most of the time, that's not going to be an issue. But every now and then they're going to hit you with it during that critical 2 second window. 2 seconds, minus 1 sec of disable, minus 1 second of cast time, minus at least a fraction of a second for your reaction time to hit the key once it's recharged, leaves you with enough downtime for them to slip something in on you.

joshuarodger · May 24, 2008, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by yacom1118

Thanks for your advice, Joshua.

If I remember correctly, I didn't experience a rollback on my recharge... It was like, everything was going just as smooth as in wastes and pits, and... got hit hard and died. I could be wrong... maybe I didn't even notice there was a rollback that was caused by SoH.

That also leads to one of my previous questions: does SoH also take away your currently enchanted elite skill such as Obby Flesh, in addition to rolling back your recharge?

Thanks again!

no it only disables it for x duration. but if you're obs flesh, which you've already casted on yourself is expiring in 5 seconds and there is still 9 seconds left for the SoH disability, you are going to be hit with a lot of damage in that downtime, and actually, probably won't be able to cast anything else at all due to the interrupts. and in all honesty i don't really see a way around this. someone with more experience with this particular quest should be more insightful if you can get any of them to respond.

edit: my mistake, i thought it was dom magic. but the same theory still applies as chthon noted, they could hit you right as your trying to cast it and screw everything up.

cerb · May 24, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Joshua, Signet of Humility is in the INS line, not DOM. In fact, tanking one side with a Terra is possible due to the Dhuums having no Inspiration Magic (meaning Signet of Humility lasts for a very short time).

I have not spent much time with groups in UW (in fact I only did Four Horsemen with a Terra two times or so), but if Signet of Humility was the problem, then Essence of Celerity would fix this. (cut the recharge on Obs Flesh by 25% from Glyph of Swiftness, and by another 25% from Celerity, which gives you enough time to recast it even if you get hit by Signet of Humility).

@ Shielding Hands: I am not sure if you are referring to PS+SH bug (only way that it is bugged that I know of), but if so, the bug is actually explained in The Art of Underworld:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Art of Underworld

[...]However, Shielding Hands only reduces the damage you take under the currently in-effect PS. Should you renew your PS, when the original would have worn off, SH damage reduction will be counted before PS, and hence you will take damage. Therefore, to make sure SH works as intended, renew Protective Spirit before each cast.

edit: by the time I was done posting, some replies were already up and meaning pretty much what I posted. =/

yacom1118 · May 24, 2008, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Thanks, Chthon.

So when I am casted SoH in that critical 2 second window, the only effect is my obby flesh recharge is slowed down by 1 second for the next recast, and there won't be any other nasty remove effects like that of Rend Echantments, correct?

Then it brings up this critical question (maybe a noobish one too): how do I know that I have just been hit by SoH?

Thanks a lot!

yacom1118 · May 24, 2008, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerb

Joshua, Signet of Humility is in the INS line, not DOM. In fact, tanking one side with a Terra is possible due to the Dhuums having no Inspiration Magic (meaning Signet of Humility lasts for a very short time).

I have not spent much time with groups in UW (in fact I only did Four Horsemen with a Terra two times or so), but if Signet of Humility was the problem, then Essence of Celerity would fix this. (cut the recharge on Obs Flesh by 25% from Glyph of Swiftness, and by another 25% from Celerity, which gives you enough time to recast it even if you get hit by Signet of Humility).

edit: by the time I was done posting, some replies were already up and meaning pretty much what I posted. =/

Every time I died Celerity was on, with the other cons too... -_-

So with the stacking 25% from both Celerity and Swiftness, I should have no problem at all, just like in pits and wastes then?

Ugh... Do I just tend to make stupid mistakes in 4 horsemen? Or was it really lagging that was the problem?

For 5 times, I cleared all wastes, pits and plains, and then died in 4 horsemen. In all of these situations... I'm pretty certain that I didn't make foolish mistakes like misclicking a skill or simply missing a recast...

What was it then?

Thanks anyhow Cerb... although I'm more confused by now...

cerb · May 24, 2008, 10:39 PM // 22:39

We'll it's kinda hard to help you fix your problem if you don't know it yourself :P I suggest going for a run and pay more attention to what happens and if you still die, update us with why you died. It'll be easier to help you this way. (pay no attention to what's been said about Shielding Hands)

joshuarodger · May 24, 2008, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Obby flesh recharges in 30, minus 25% is 22.5, rounds up to 23.

one thing i am almost certain about though (i even read it somewhere though i can't remember where off the top of my head), GW rounds "incorrectly", for lack of a better term. .5 is rounded down and .6 is rounded up. hence the 55 monk taking 5 damage per hit instead of 6. so this would actually decrease your "window" even further. and in this case, 1 second can really be the end of the run.

again sorry for the misinformation about SoH and Dom Magic. /facepalm. learn to read the whole thing Josh. lol that's what i get. i make an ass out of myself for trying to help. well i'm never helping again.

yacom1118 · May 24, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by joshuarodger

one thing i am almost certain about though (i even read it somewhere though i can't remember where off the top of my head), GW rounds "incorrectly", for lack of a better term. .5 is rounded down and .6 is rounded up. hence the 55 monk taking 5 damage per hit instead of 6. so this would actually decrease your "window" even further. and in this case, 1 second can really be the end of the run.

Don't worry about it, Josh.

One thing I does notice through using the same build both with and without cons in different maps is that without cons the timing is indeed critical. You almost have no window in between expiration and recast of stoneflesh and obby flesh. However, when you do have cons that window becomes at least 3-4 seconds, more if your staff happens to give you a half skill recharge. So I'm sure it's just like what Cerb said, 25% from Celerity and Swiftness stack. And I didn't experience any timing problem, even when I died :P That's why I was left with a thousand question marks every time it happened.

Enko · May 25, 2008, 02:27 AM // 02:27

you running it in hard mode?

we're having issues with SoH in hm. do the dhuums have 0 in inspiration on hard mode as well?

yacom1118 · May 25, 2008, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enko

you running it in hard mode?

we're having issues with SoH in hm. do the dhuums have 0 in inspiration on hard mode as well?

Yes. I have been running with ursanway groups in HM. According to Guildwars Wiki HM Dhuums have nothing but 20 domination in their attributes. That means their SoH indeed has only 1 second disabling effect...

Dr Dimento · May 25, 2008, 08:05 AM // 08:05

I've asked the same question before (a search would probably bring up my post). After doing it a number of times now, i can say that it is pretty much all luck as to when SoH hits.

If it hits just before you're about to recast ob flesh (or you can tell you will not have enough time to maintain it), you call for spellbreaker. A spellbreaker monk is the only way to be sure you CAN tank one side on the four horsemen quest. It is much more likely that you can do it alone with cons since you have more time to play with, but without cons i always ALWAYS make sure we have a SB monk in the group to back me up.

yacom1118 · May 25, 2008, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Dimento

I've asked the same question before (a search would probably bring up my post). After doing it a number of times now, i can say that it is pretty much all luck as to when SoH hits.

If it hits just before you're about to recast ob flesh (or you can tell you will not have enough time to maintain it), you call for spellbreaker. A spellbreaker monk is the only way to be sure you CAN tank one side on the four horsemen quest. It is much more likely that you can do it alone with cons since you have more time to play with, but without cons i always ALWAYS make sure we have a SB monk in the group to back me up.

Thanks for your diagnosis Dr. Dimento. I will try more runs after my exams

Mr.Kotte · May 25, 2008, 12:32 PM // 12:32

If the Dhuum rider manages to disable [obsidian flesh] when you are casting it, you will be interrupted, and obviosly have to cast it again. I'd also suggest you to get a video recording software (like gamecam or fraps) and simply record a run, then look at where it goes wrong.
Just make sure that [obsidian flesh] always is recharging. Then you should be fine.